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作者：Anonymous 在 罕见奇谈 发贴, 来自 http://www.hjclub.org
澳洲SBS电视记者采访日本首相小泉纯一郎
April 20, 2005
随着东亚两个大国关系的紧张，有人说世界第二大经济和第三大经济正在走向不可避免的冲突。澳大利亚SBS电视台记者乔治。尼古斯George Negus专程到东京对小泉纯一郎进行了专访。专访的录像在SPS的DATELINE节目，4月20和21日播出。
下面是笔者的仓促中文翻译，若有歧义，以英文为准。英文原文见：
http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.php?page=archive&daysum=2005-04-20#
乔治。尼古斯：首相，首先请允许我提一个看起来可能有点愚蠢的问题。为什么您同意接受我们这次采访，考虑到您极少接受非日本媒体的采访？为什么是我们，在现在这个时候？
小泉纯一郎，日本首相(翻译)：我要说最大的原因是贵国总理霍华德即将访日。
乔治。尼古斯：你们与澳大利亚，特别是与霍华德先生的关系有多重要？
小泉纯一郎：我们与澳大利亚之间的关系将越来越重要。经济上我们当然已经保持了多年的密切关系。但是近来，我们也在反恐与国际合作方面发展了政治关系。
澳大利亚与美国关系密切，也把眼睛转向亚洲。就拿游客说吧，日本夏天的时候澳大利亚是冬天。所以，怎么说呢，游客可以享受不同的季节。热天的时候，人们向往冷天，反之亦然。所以我想日本游客喜欢访问澳大利亚。
尼古斯：说到热天，现在对日本来说可以说是热天，因为你们现在与中国和其他亚洲邻居之间的关系可以说是很辣手。你是否会与霍华德先生讨论这个问题，这个我们或许可以称它为日中之间武力的佼量，力量的斗争？
小泉纯一郎：我们当然会讨论这些话问题及其他问题。就直接的日澳关系而言，与我们邻居之间的问题将要放在国际形势的框架下予以商讨。
尼古斯：如果霍华德先生建议您让步，建议您面对历史，中国人关心的那样，或许象中国总理说得那样，承认日本过去的错误并对此道歉。如果霍华德先生建议那样，您会注意他的建议吗？
小泉纯一郎：霍华德先生不必提起此事，我们已经直接从中国听到了。
尼古斯：您打算道歉？还是对中国人的这一要求置之不理？您感觉对过去日本在战争中的行为有必要向中国道歉吗？
小泉纯一郎：我们有战争的经历和你说的那种(中国的)要求， 在此基础上我们建设与中国的友好关系。我们有不同的观点，将来也会是这样。但是随着中国的成熟它将会更加冷静，并在更广泛的角度上考虑我们间的友好关系。
尼古斯：当前中国街头上表现出很多反日情绪，几乎是恨日本和恨日本人，您能够说你们与中国的关系是友好的吗？
小泉纯一郎：总体关系是友好的，当然确有一些反日的情绪。
尼古斯：作为一个人，您，在您内心深处，灵魂里面，难道不会被中国、南韩和其他亚洲国家如此强烈的反日情绪所困扰吗？作为一个人，不仅仅作为首相，您难道不为这种对日本和日本人的仇恨所困扰吗？
小泉纯一郎：处理这些情绪需要时间。在任何情况下，只要情绪起作用，你就不能指望它会很快冷静下来。双方都需要耐心。
尼古斯：那么说您不同意日本和中国正在走向冲突的说法，形势好转之前将继续恶化的说法？
小泉纯一郎：我不同意它会恶化。可能会有各种不同的观点或暂时的摩擦但是我们会继续珍视我们的友谊纽带。
尼古斯：对您来说，澳大利亚向伊拉克派兵保护日本工程人员这件事，如果我用词准确的话，有多重要？
小泉纯一郎：我高度赞赏霍华德先生在当前形势下作出的向伊拉克增派部队的决定。我赞赏这种做法不仅因为澳大利亚帮助保证日本(工程)部队的安全。帮助伊拉克建立起一个民主政府是国际社会的一个重要目标。霍华德先生做了一个勇敢的决定。
尼古斯：您能够为我澄清一件事吗？是您要求霍华德先生协助那些(日本)部队，还是霍华德先生提出要帮助的？您能够澄清一下吗？
小泉纯一郎：当时情形是......在荷兰部队撤出以后，英国要派部队，或者是澳洲部队。在那种形势下，我直接告诉霍华德先生如果澳大利亚能够派出部队，日本将会非常感谢。
尼古斯：那个决定对所有澳洲人来说都不大得人心。您说您不会对中国人民道歉，感到没有必要对中国人民道歉。您想过对那些在二此世界大战中日本战俘营里失去儿子的澳洲家庭道歉了吗？您会考虑对那些在战俘营里死去的澳洲人，他们的家庭和他们的战友道歉吗？
小泉纯一郎：永远不要再一次战争。日本在那次战争中给澳大利亚造成了很大的损害，对此我们认识到它给澳洲人造成严重的麻烦。我们必须保证这种问题在将来不再重复。在此基础上，我们建立了友好的纽带，克服了战争的经历。我相信在建立友谊时记住历史的一课是重要的。
尼古斯：但是不需要道歉？
小泉纯一郎：我不是那个意思。对战争造成的损害是需要道歉。我说这些是因为战争中日本的潜水艇攻击了悉尼港。潜水艇进入了悉尼港，被澳洲军方发觉。有一艘潜艇沉没，另一艘从港口逃出来但一直失踪。
虽然澳洲与日本处於战争状态，澳洲海军对沉没的日本潜艇上的士兵给予了深深的尊重。他们悼念了死去的日本士兵。当时澳洲海军为死去的士兵举行了海军葬礼，那是最高的荣誉，还埋葬了他，尽管他还是敌人，一个敌国的士兵。
一般情况下，人们仇恨还仇恨不够。对敌方士兵砍剁或者刑罚，我是说，虐待，是不难理解的。虽然他是一个敌人，但澳大利亚人看到了他的勇气和爱国精神，给予了他最高的荣誉。我要说他们这样做简直是不可思议，伟大的海军精神，...... 武士精神。
尼古斯：那么那些在日本部队手中遭受痛苦的澳大利亚战俘呢？我的意思是，难道他们(的遭遇)不应当受到某种意义的认可，如我刚才说的，甚至是贵政府的道歉吗？他们在战俘营里受到了野蛮的非人待遇。我听到你说的关于那个飞行员，可是那些战俘营里受虐待和死去的澳大利亚人呢？
小泉纯一郎：通过诚心地反省我们战争中所犯的错误和建立友好的纽带，我们已经走过来了。当然我们仍然对你所提到的由我们引起的损害和痛苦而感到遗憾。
尼古斯：但是不需要道歉？
小泉纯一郎：在那样做的时候我们已经建立起友好的邦交。
尼古斯：作为首相，日本取得安理会的席位有多重要？对您来说这是一件很重要的事吗？我们看到的最近的这些区域间邻居之的麻烦，是不是和这件事有关？
小泉纯一郎：自从终战以来，尽管联合国直接针对日本和德国的敌对国条款，日本已经对国际和平与稳定作出了最大的努力。从过去60年日本的表现记录和对将来对联合国起的作用看，我相信日本具有了联合国安理会会永久会员的资格。
尼古斯：首相先生，如果我们，如果霍华德先生在与您会见时寻求您当前的看法，什么是对和平和区域安全的最大威胁？北朝鲜，台湾海峡，还是归国和中国之间的麻烦？这三个之间，哪一个构成最大的威胁？
小泉纯一郎：挑出哪一个或者说危机何时发生是困难的。这很难预测...... 还有其他的威胁。重要的是国家间在平时的合作，使潜在的危机不会发生，创造一个安全的环境。
尼古斯：世界不必担心一个上升的，新军国主义的日本？
小泉纯一郎：绝对不必。与我们邻居的军事实力相比尤其不必。
尼古斯：首相，非常感谢您的时间，可惜我们没有时间跳一个快舞，象您和Richard Gere 那样。
小泉纯一郎：谢谢。
尼古斯：采访之后，紧接着，小泉的高级官员指示翻译更正部分关于其对是否日本要求澳大利亚派兵去伊拉克保护日本工程人员的回答。
(日方)翻译：下面是对究竟是霍华德提供，还是小泉要求澳大利亚派兵的问题的答复：“如果澳大利亚派兵，我会非常感谢”那就是首相当时说的。我想我错误地说成是“要求”。对不起。
尼古斯：究竟是小泉首相要求澳大利亚军事协助，还是约翰。霍华德未被要求就提供协助？我们询问了约翰。霍华德办公室，他的公关秘书坚持说是日本要求澳大利亚派兵。或许我们说话的时候，这两位总理正在东京探讨解决这个说法上的差异？
Archives - April 20, 2005
Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi Interview As the East Asian slanging match raged, international commentators were warning that the world's second and third largest economies are on an inevitable collision course as they jostle for top-dog status. And this was the highly charged context in which late last week, prior to John Howard's current exercise in shuttle diplomacy, George Negus made his own flying visit to Tokyo to talk exclusively with the charismatic but currently embattled Japanese Prime Minister at his official residence.
GEORGE NEGUS: Prime Minister, can I ask you what might seem like a silly question first of all. Why did you agree to have us interview you, because you give interviews very rarely to the non-Japanese media? Why us at this point?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, JAPANESE PRIME MINISTER,(Translation): I would say the biggest reason is your Prime Minister, Mr Howard, is visiting Japan very soon. How important is your relationship with Australia and Mr Howard in particular?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): The importance of our relations with Australia will grow further. Economically we certainly had a very close relationship for many years. But more recently, we've also developed our relationship politically and in terms of counter-terrorism and international cooperation.
I might add Australia has close ties with the US and also has its eye turned to Asia. Take tourists. When it's summer in Japan, it's winter in Australia. So - how shall I say? - tourists can enjoy different seasons. In hot climates, people miss the cold and vice versa. So I think Japanese tourists would enjoy visiting Australia.
GEORGE NEGUS: Speaking of hot, you could say that these are hot times for Japan, that you are having what could be called very tricky relations with China and other neighbours in the Asian region at the moment. Is this something that you'll discuss with Mr Howard, the fact that there is this row, as we would call it, an arm wrestle, a power struggle going on between yourself and the Chinese?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): I'm sure we'll discuss these issues among others. In terms of direct Japan-Australia relations, issues related to our neighbours will be discussed in the context of the international situation.
GEORGE NEGUS: What would you do though, if your friend Mr Howard suggested hat maybe, where the Chinese are concerned, that you should back off, that maybe, as the Chinese Premier says, you should face up to history, recognise the errors of the past where Japan is concerned and apologise. If Mr Howard suggested that, would you take any notice of him?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): Mr Howard needn't mention that. We've been hearing it directly from China.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you intend apologising or are you going to ignore that demand by the Chinese? Do you feel you have a need to apologise to the Chinese for past Japanese behaviour during war situations?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): We had the wartime experience and the demands that you mentioned and on that basis we've been building friendly ties with China. We've had different views. We will in the future too. But when China becomes more grown-up I believe it will be more cool-headed and consider our friendly ties in a broader perspective.
GEORGE NEGUS: Would you say your relations with the Chinese are friendly at the moment, because there's a lot of anti-Japanese feeling being expressed on the streets of China at the moment, almost hatred of your nation and your people?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): The overall relationship is friendly. But it's true there's some anti-Japanese sentiment.
GEORGE NEGUS: Does it bother you deep, deep down in your being, in your soul, as a man, does it bother you that there is so much anti-Japanese feeling and anger being expressed by the Chinese and South Koreans and others in Asia at the moment - as a man, not just as Prime Minister, does it bother you that there is this antagonism towards Japanese people and the Japanese nation?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): It takes time to deal with these emotions. In any situation involving an emotion you can't expect it to cool off immediately. Both sides must be patient.
GEORGE NEGUS: So you don't agree with those commentators who say that Japan and China could be on a collision course, that the situation will get worse before it gets better?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): I can't agree it will get worse. There may be different views or temporary frictions ahead but we'll continue to place importance on our friendly ties.
GEORGE NEGUS: How important has it been to you and to Japan that Australia has offered to send more troops to Iraq to protect - if that's the right word - the Japanese engineers working in Iraq at the moment? Is it important to you?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): I highly appreciate Mr Howard's decision to send Australian troops to Iraq under current circumstances. I appreciate it not just because Australia will help us by securing the safety of the Japanese troops. To help the Iraqis establish a democratic government is an important goal of the international community. Mr Howard made a courageous decision in this regard.
GEORGE NEGUS: Could you clear up one thing for me? It hasn't been clear after that decision whether you actually asked John Howard for assistance with those troops or John Howard offered assistance to you. Could you clear that up for me?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): The situation was... after the Dutch were to withdraw, British troops were to be sent, and possibly Australian troops. In those circumstances, I told Mr Howard directly if Australia were to send troops, Japan would be very grateful.
GEORGE NEGUS: That decision wasn't popular with all Australians. You've indicated that you won't apologise to the Chinese, you feel no need to apologise to the Chinese. Would you ever consider apologising to the Australian families who lost their sons during the Second World War as a result of Japanese prisoner of war camps? Would you consider an apology to Australians and their families and their mates who died in prisoner of war camps?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): There must never be another war. Japan caused Australia a great deal of damage during the war, which we recognised caused its people serious trouble. We must make sure this problem is not repeated in the future. On that basis, we've been building friendly ties and overcoming the wartime experience. I believe it's important to keep the lessons of history in mind as we build up our friendly ties.
GEORGE NEGUS: But no need for an apology?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): That's not what I mean. There is need to apologise for the damage caused by the war. I say this because during the war Japanese forces attacked Sydney Harbour with mini-submarines. The submarines entered the harbour. The submarines were detected by the Australian forces. One of them was sunk. The other escaped from the harbour but remained missing.
Although Australia was at war with Japan, the Australian Navy treated the soldier in the sunken submarine with deep respect. They honoured the dead Japanese soldier. At that time the Australian Navy held a naval funeral for the soldier which is the highest honour and buried him... in spite of the fact that he was an enemy, a soldier of an enemy nation.
Normally, people can't hate an enemy enough. It wouldn't be surprising if an enemy soldier was chopped up or tortured... I mean, abused. Though he
was an enemy the Australians saw his courage and patriotism and treated him with highest honour. They had this incredibly... splendid navy spirit I would say... the spirit of the warrior.
GEORGE NEGUS: What about the Australians though, who suffered in prisoner of war camps at the hands of the Japanese troops? I mean don't they deserve some sort of acknowledgment, as I said, and maybe even an apology from your government for the quite vicious treatment that they received in the prisoner of war camps? I hear what you're saying about the airman, but what about the Australians who suffered and died in prisoner of war camps?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): By sincerely reflecting on our mistakes in the war and building friendly ties, we have overcome that. Of course, we do still feel regret for having caused the damage and the sufferings you mentioned.
GEORGE NEGUS: But no need for an apology.
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): We've already been building friendly ties while doing that.
GEORGE NEGUS: How important is it to you, as Prime Minister of Japan, that Japan secures a seat at the United Nations Security Council? Is that a matter of great importance to you? And is it possible that all this trouble we're seeing in the region with your neighbours at the moment is related to that?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): Since the end of the war, in spite of the enemy clauses of the UN Charter which are directed at Japan and Germany, Japan has been contributing, to the best of its ability, to international peace and stability. Considering our track record for the past 60 years and the role Japan can play in the future of the UN I believe Japan is rightly qualified to be a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
GEORGE NEGUS: Mr Prime Minister, if we sought - if Mr Howard sought your advice at the moment, when you're talking with him, what would you think is the greatest threat to peace and security in our region at the moment - North Korea, the Straits of Taiwan issue, or this brewing trouble between you and the Chinese? Which of those three things do you think poses the greatest threat?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): It's very difficult to pick just one or to say when a crisis might occur. It's very difficult to predict... There are those potential threats. What's important in security is that countries cooperate in normal times so that the potential crises never materialise, and try to create a safe environment.
GEORGE NEGUS: And the world doesn't have to fear a rising, a new militaristic Japan?
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): Absolutely not. Not compared to the military strength of our neighbours.
GEORGE NEGUS: Prime Minister, thank you very much for your time and it's a shame we don't have time for a quick dance, as you did with Richard Gere.
JUNICHIRO KOIZUMI, (Translation): Thank you.
GEORGE NEGUS: Immediately after Prime Minister Koizumi left the interview,his senior officials instructed the interpreter to correct part of the Prime Minister's answer to the question on whether Japan had requested that Australian troops be sent to Iraq to protect Japanese engineers. Listen to this post-interview exchange.
INTERPRETER: This is the answer to a question about, did Prime Minister Howard offer, or did Mr Koizumi request Australian troops: "If Australia were to send troops, I'd really appreciate that." That was what the Prime Minister really said. Whereas I think I misspoke and said 'requested'. Sorry about that.
GEORGE NEGUS: So, did PM Koizumi request Australian military assistance or did John Howard offer it without being asked? We asked John Howard's office for a response and his press secretary insisted that Japan had requested that Australian troops be sent. Maybe the two PMs are sorting out this discrepancy in Tokyo as we speak?
作者：Anonymous 在 罕见奇谈 发贴, 来自 http://www.hjclub.org |
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